C05-2-28 What is the Urim and Thummim?: https://www.bitchute.com/video/chjg0g1ZpnMC

Notes: Urim Thummim: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OjHMBlmeLIP47s6E4bPAfFQDfc4bFkje/edit?tab=t.0

Leeland Jones video posted on July 24, 2025, transcribed with photos:

What is the Urim and Thummim? We are on a series and I am very excited to share with you. We have a couple more parts to this series coming up after this, at least two more messages. We’re very excited. The first part was The High Priest’s Breastplate {link at bottom of this blog post}, and we’ve rendered the high priest’s breastplate as you can see here: 

We had to make our own because our view is that the gemstones on the breastplate go in rows but the rows are in the cardinal points. That leaves in the middle the Urim and Thummim. What is the Urim and Thummim? Well we don’t know exactly. It doesn’t say that they are stones. It doesn’t say one is white and one is black in the way we’re representing here. We don’t exactly know. It doesn’t say that. It doesn’t specify that specifically. 

However, when we read about it we can see it here at Exodus 28. The stones, the 12 stones for the 12 tribes of the children of Israel, were to be on Aaron’s heart and the Urim and Thummim were to be on Aaron’s heart.  We discussed in the last video on the breastplate and the orientation why we felt it was necessary to make it like this. 

Now what we hope to do is show you the mystery of what is the Urim and Thummim and what it represents. Where does it start? Where is its fulfillment and meaning?

We read about them in Exodus 28. YHWH has come down on Mount Sinai. Moses has gone up the first 40 days and YHWH has explained to him the breastplate. We see the Urim and Thummim.

Exodus 28:29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before YHWH continually. 30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart.

In the King James it says in the breastplate, but in the Septuagint it says upon the breastplate.  So just like the stones are upon the breastplate, the Urim and Thummim is upon the breastplate. It is visible. That’s our view and interpretation.

30 They shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goes in before Yahweh: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before YHWH continually.

The breastplate of judgment, this is the breastplate of judgment that would be upon his chest. We have the 12 stones representing the 12 tribes of the children of Israel upon his heart and the Urim and Thummim upon his heart.

Now that we know that we will look and do a further study and what is it that we know about Urim and Thummim? What is it that we can see how it has its fulfillment in our day? What is the Urim and Thummim? Here are our notes (see end of document). 

Here you see our somewhat crude textile skills in a breastplate representation which we had discussed in the previous video. We’ll have more to explain further its importance. It’s significant.  

When YHWH provided instructions to Moses on the mountain for the high priest garments, these are a pattern of the Tabernacle itself, we find the items of the breastplate called the Urim and Thummim. The stones in the middle here, the white one and the black one, are representing those. We don’t know if they are stones as we shown in the picture in black and white.

Exodus 28:30 “thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment אֶת־ {Aleph Tav} the Urim and וְאֶת־ {Aleph Tav} the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart.”

We have Aleph Tav before Urim and the Aleph Tav Thummim. Aleph Tav is the name of Christ which is ahead of these words in the Hebrew. Because we have the Aleph Tav we know that there’s something important going on here.  And in each item it says in King James ‘Put in’, but in Hebrew it’s nathan for ‘put’ and ‘in’ is אֶל el- and that is usually translated ‘to’ where the Septuagint {LXX}, as we mentioned before, says ‘upon’.

Basically the high priest gemstones which often are represented, usually what they do is they place the gemstones, it says rows there are 4 rows, and they place them in rows like I’m showing you in my little photo here.

But if you have the Urim and Thummim there’s no room for them if the rows are stuck on top of each other like I’m illustrating.

However, if we have the rows going in the cardinal points we actually have room to ‘put on’ the breastplate or ‘upon’ the breastplate, as it says in the Septuagint, the Urim and Thummim so that there is space for all the stones.

The Septuagint as well provides different names than what we see in the Hebrew. Exodus 28:30, ABP “you shall place upon the oracle of the judgment, the Manifestation and the Truth ἀλήθεια alḗtheia, and they shall be upon the breast of Aaron…” They have in the Greek Manifestation and Truth which gives somewhat as to the meaning of what these are. 

Urim in the Hebrew {strongs h0224 אוּרִים ’ûrîym} is plural of the word light {“im” h217}, and Thummim {h8550 תֻּמִּים ṯumiym} is plural of another word meaning integrity or perfection {h8537 תֹּם ṯôm}, or also could be Truth. The stones provided a means of achieving a sacred lot, used with Urim, and the will of God is revealed.

The Urim and Thummim upon the breastplate they would be ways the high priest could achieve a question and enquire of YHWH in the time that they cannot go into the Holy of Holies. Because the schedule of the Holy of Holies is less frequent, so the high priest could go into the Holy place and have the breastplate, or whoever has the breastplate, could enquire of the LORD to find out what YHWH says regarding a matter, to find out what His will is. What is His will regarding the matter.

We don’t actually know what the objects are, but it’s believed they were stones. However, Moses doesn’t tell us. He tells us specifically the other stones are each tribe, the 12 tribes. There are rows and the gemstones are detailed.

Now in the last video {The High Priest’s Breastplate} we talked about the Garments of Alpha and Omega in the book of Revelation. That was what we had already discussed.

Now the Camp of the 12 Tribes. This is actually going to be a whole video in itself in one of our future videos, but this study of the Urim and Thummim is following the gemstones. We talked about the gemstones and how they relate to New Jerusalem. Now we’ve discovered actually the connection between how the gemstones that are on the breastplate relate to New Jerusalem. That’s very, very, exciting news. We really look forward to sharing that with you, but in this video we’re looking at the Urim and Thummim that’s on Aaron’s heart.

If we have the 12 gemstones on the breastplate and there are four rows stacked like I was showing you with this little representation here. If they’re stacked on top of each other what they say is that there’s a pouch in the back and that had the Urim and Thummim, but that’s not what we believe. We believe that all 12 stones and the Urim and Thummim are visible or on the surface of the breastplate.

• That’s why we had to make our own because nobody is representing the breastplate in the manner we’re showing you. 

We don’t know if our interpretation is 100%, but if it is right, then we actually have New Jerusalem being displayed on the breastplate. We’ll be able to prove that and show you in a future video.

Yes, the breastplate becomes a MAP. 

This proposed view is reinforced when the children of Israel camped in the cardinal points, east, west north, south around the Tabernacle. They camped around the cardinal points.  And the position of each cardinal point: east, west, north, south, our view is that each cardinal point is a row of 3 gemstones just like New Jerusalem. It has 12 gates and it has 12 foundations. Every gate is a foundation and we have a gemstone. 

If some of this doesn’t make sense, it’s going to make sense through repetition. It’s really important you follow each video in the series.

What would happen is in the camps the children of Israel had an insignia that represented their tribe. It is most likely coming from Genesis 49 when Jacob blesses the twelve sons, and Deuteronomy 33 when Moses sends a blessing to the 12 tribes. The sign of Levi is in Deuteronomy 33:8  “of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one.”

{12 min mark} The camps of the children of Israel when they camped they would have a banner. They were in cardinal points and their banner is represented on a flag, and there at 3 tribes per cardinal point. In the center was the Tabernacle, and the tribe of Levi camped in the middle with the Tabernacle. He had 12 tribes on the outside, and Levi was in the middle with their banner. Because Levi is represented by the Urim and Thummim, that is their insignia, it is actually giving us the location of where the Urim and Thummim is supposed to go. 

So when we look at the breastplate it’s a MAP of the camp of the children of Israel. When they camp the Tabernacle is in the middle. The tribes were in the cardinal points and the Urim and Thummim, which is the banner of Levi, is in the middle. That really solidifies our view that the Urim and Thummim are supposed to be in the middle of the breastplate. The Urim and Thummim is Levi who camped around the Tabernacle, so that the order there is a MAP.

• If we were looking bird’s eye view looking down at the children of Israel, the breastplate would look like a MAP, essentially.
• Not only that, New Jerusalem looks like a MAP as well, and we’ll get into that in the future.

In New Jerusalem the city is in the center just like the Urim and Thummim is in the center in the Tabernacle. The center of New Jerusalem has a city that’s in the middle. “the square of the city is of pure gold {Genesis 2:12 } of glass {ὕαλος hýalos} transparent {διαυγης g1307 diaphanēs}, Revelation 21:21, ABP.” So here the city is in the center just like the Tabernacle was in the center of the surrounding 12 tribes. Then New Jerusalem has 12 gates of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.

Now what we want to do is what is the Urim and Thummim? What are the Scriptural examples of how this works, when was this used?

The Urim may have actually replaced the function of the pillar of cloud/ fire once the children of Israel entered the Promised Land { Deuteronomy 31:15}. It didn’t say this for sure, but it’s implied here in Numbers 27:21 ““he (Joshua) shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before YHWH: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.”

They’ll go out. They’ll come in. Go out and come in is based on the judgment of the Urim, which could be an indication that the Urim’s function now is like that of the pillar cloud and pillar of fire.

Now let’s look at some other examples. There we see a clear use of it by Joshua and Eleazar the high priest. We see examples with Saul, king Saul. Saul’s example we will read 1 Samuel 14:41 in the ESV,  “Therefore Saul said, “O LORD God of Israel, why have you not answered your servant this day? If this guilt is in me or in Jonathan my son, O LORD, God of Israel, give Urim. But if this guilt is in your people Israel, give Thummim.”

It would appear what’s happening here is that Saul is “not” really hearing clearly from YHWH about a certain matter and he’s trying to attribute the Urim to guilt for him and Jonathan his son, or Thummim to the children of Israel. It’s a bit like casting lots to decide who is at fault. 

Then what it appears happened is the Urim and Thummim stopped working for Saul because David is then becoming the king. Saul still thinks he’s the king, he’s still trying to enquire of the Lord, but the Lord isn’t speaking to him anymore because now David is rising up. Not sure if David has been anointed, maybe he has, but once that happens YHWH stopped speaking to Saul and starts speaking to David with the Urim and Thummim. 

1Samuel 28:6  “when Saul enquired of YHWH, YHWH answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.”

Then we see examples with David. David is being pursued by Saul.

1 Samuel 23:6 “Abiathar came down to Keilahwith an ephod in his hand.”  The ephod is the part that the breastplate is attached to. 

9 “David said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod. 10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. 11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant.” 

David has the ephod, he has the Urim and Thummim, and he’s asking YHWH about what is going to happen with Saul, is he coming? 11 “And the LORD said, He will come down.” YHWH answers David, yes, Saul’s going to come into this city. Then David asked another question.  12 “Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And YHWH said, They will deliver thee up.”

Now keep in mind the Urim and Thummim is on that ephod. The ephod, he is not with the Tabernacle. The priest had brought that to David out in the field if you were. Here we can see that Saul was using the Urim and Thummim like casting lots, but now David is getting complete sentences. YHWH is saying, he will come down. Will they deliver you up? Yes, they will deliver you up.

Now another example where David uses the ephod, and again the Urim and Thummim is in the matter of Ziklag.

1 Samuel 30:7 “David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech’s son, I pray thee, bring me hither the ephod. And Abiathar brought thither the ephod to David. 8 And David enquired at YHWH, saying, Shall I pursue after this troop? shall I overtake them?”

The people that took David at Ziklag, they took their wives and everything, and so he’s asking YHWH should I go back.

8 “And he {YHWH} answered him, Pursue: for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail recover all (from Ziklag).”

Again David is getting a response from the Urim and Thummim of complete sentences; Pursue: for you shall overtake them, and recover everything that you lost.

Then we have a gap. We don’t see the Urim and Thummim being used really after this. It would appear that the prophets begin to rise up, and so that when a king has a question he goes to the prophet and the prophet speaks. There were not very many righteous kings. We see David as a righteous king.  We see Hezekiah and Josiah. We don’t really see Hezekiah or any of them using the Urim and Thummim while the Temple is still there and the high priest order is still there.

Then the next time we hear about the Urim and Thummim is all the way with Ezra and Nehemiah when they come back, when they come back and return to Jerusalem. What’s happening when they return the priest comes and the priest says, we’re priests, but they couldn’t prove that they were priests through the registry of the names that came from Babylon that Ezra and Nehemiah had. So what they said is like well we don’t know you, we’re not going to have you be priests, but we’re not going to decide and judge you either. We’re going to wait for a priest to arrive with the Urim and Thummim.

Now what we believe is happening here is it’s actually a prophecy, and we’ll get to the prophecy, but let’s read it.

Ezra 2:62  “These sought their register (of priesthood) among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood. 63  And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.”

{22:22 min mark} Now to the best of our knowledge the Urim and Thummim never resurfaced after the Babylonian captivity. It may have been that the breastplate was there with the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant didn’t resurface when the children of Israel come back from Babylon. They may have thought that the Urim and Thummim if it resurfaces again and we have a high priest, then that will judge the matter of people whose names are not in the register. This implies that they expected to have a priest with the Urim and Thummim to decide the matter, but the breastplate was not available.

• Therefore, this could allude to a prophecy in the future when a High Priest would arise with the Urim and Thummim. Who is the High Priest that will rise with Urim and Thummim? We believe it’s the Lord Jesus Christ in the order of Melchizedek.

When Ezra said a high priest will have to rise up with the Urim and Thummim to decide the matter, it’s Christ. Christ will rise as that priest and He will be able to decide the matter and find out what YHWH’s will is.

This could be what Christ is doing in the book of Revelation when He granted to the overcomers.

Revelation 2:17 “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone {psephos}.”  It’s a voting stone. “and in the stone a new name written.”

There are names written on those stones. It could be that that’s one of the fulfillments of the Urim and Thummim, with Christ granting the Urim to the priesthood, those that come, right just like Ezra and Nehemiah.

Phosphorus. Now what we want to do is look and we can see how this also will have another fulfillment. What we’re seeing is a pattern here. We’re basically relating much of what we’re seeing with the high priest breastplate to New Jerusalem.

In New Jerusalem we see each stone is a gate of New Jerusalem. Each gate has a foundation and a foundation stone. Basically if you enter New Jerusalem you have to enter through the tribe, you would have to be a tribe and enter, and then inside of the wall of New Jerusalem is the city.  Just like when the children of Israel camped, when they camped the center of the camp was the Tabernacle, and the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant. So they encamped around the throne of YHWH. New Jerusalem would also be a MAP of the city. 

Let’s go to our section on the Phosphorus.   Revelation 21:18 “the city {of New Jerusalem} was pure gold, like unto clear glass.” Pure gold is translucent in its purest form. Verse 21 describes the same but with a different word for glass, diaphanēs.  Revelation 21:21 ABP “the square of the city is of pure gold as transparent glass {diauges}.” 

This word is also used with a slight variation in 2 Peter 1:19 ABP, diaugase {διαυγάση g1306}. We’re seeing a relationship here between the word of glass, diaphanēs with diaugase. Here the word only appears in relation to the City of New Jerusalem and the “Day Star” in 2 Peter chapter 1. Are each a fulfillment of the Urim and Thummim?

Let’s read 2 Peter 1:19 in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot (ABP), “as a lamp shining forth in a dismal place, until which day should shine through {diaugase διαυγάση}, and the morning (day) star {φωσφόρος phōsphóros} should arise in your hearts.”

• Day Star in the Greek is Phosphorus.

Remember the Urim and Thummim was to be upon the heart. Yes, that’s what we believe. We believe that Moses went onto the mountain and YHWH showed him the high priest breastplate, He showed Moses the Urim and Thummim.

Peter was on the holy mountain with YHWH, that’s what it’s talking about here in 2 Peter, and when he was on the holy mount I believe Peter is also showing the revelation. Peter is revealing it, in 2 Peter 1:19 that the Day Star, Phosphorus, should arise in your hearts. Here we can see this word is only used about the Day Star and New Jerusalem, and this is also the morning star. The morning star, Christ said, To he who overcomes I will give to him the morning star.

Each passage also talks about the lamp, {λύχνος} lychnos. 2 Peter 1:19  “unto the lamp that shines in a dark place,” Revelation 21:23 and “the city had no need of the sun or moon, to shine in it: for the glory of YHWH did lighten it, and the Lamb is the lamp {light λύχνος lychnos}.”

• There’s no sun or moon in New Jerusalem.

It is the light that was on day one of creation, “let there be Light”. There was no sun or moon, that didn’t come until day four. The greater and lesser light were created on day four.

Genesis 1:14 and 16 (ABP) the greater and lesser lights are the luminaries or {φωστήρ} phōstḗr in the firmament. 

Revelation 21:11 (ABP), with the City “having the glory of God. Her luminescence { φωστήρ phōstḗr, foce-tare’ g5458 from 5457; an illuminator, i.e. a luminary, or brilliancy:–light.} was likened to precious stone, as to jasper stone sparkling.”

Luminescence is also in New Jerusalem, so New Jerusalem is going back to day one of creation with this Light. 

Peter admonishes the saints to be luminaries and apostle Paul talks about it too. Philippians 2:15 (ABP) “become blameless and unmixed, children of God, without blemish, in the midst of a generation crooked and perverted, among whom you appear as luminaries {φωστήρ phōstḗr} in the world.” 

Sparkling {Revelation 21:11}. What we’re doing here in this study is we’re looking at these keywords. Crystal, New Jerusalem is crystallized or clear as crystal. Again we are drawing this connection between the Day Star that Peter talked about, the Day Star, phosphorus and the city of New Jerusalem which is the Urim and Thummim and the 12 gemstones.

Let Your will be done. What we also learn about the function of the Urim and Thummim is that they were to find out what is the will of YHWH regarding a matter, so that we should always be, What is Your will? Your will be done on the earth, not mine as the Son said, and we should say as well. We should always remember, nevertheless not my will, but let Your will be done as part of the famous prayer. The Urim and Thummim serve as a reminder to us, let Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

What have we learned here? Your will be done, first and foremost.

We don’t need stones. The Urim and Thummim would be fulfilled in a way that we do not need external things. You don’t need to make a breastplate. You don’t need to do this. I’m just doing this to illustrate because there’s no one showing it the way that I believe it should be properly viewed.

Thanks for watching. This is part of our series on ‘Show the Design’. What we’re doing is we’re trying to explain how there is an absolute perfect order in YHWH’s patterns.  So when He’s showing the breastplate, yes, He’s showing New Jerusalem, He’s showing what we call the Camp of the Saints. There is a tremendous significance in the things being laid out. Very, very deep things that I believe He’s revealing in these end of days.

Thanks for watching, and remember the voice came from the throne saying, Praise our God!

C05-2-27 The High Priest’s Breastplate: https://overcominglymedisease.com/the-high-priests-breastplate/

Show the Design, Measure Pattern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-YARtH1hPA&list=PLXqaGD7sX9gYZoDzRkvteaRNMs32bWh6c

C05-2-28 What is the Urim and Thummim?: https://overcominglymedisease.com/what-is-the-urim-and-thummim/

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